Muslim Women and the Proposed Ban on Burqas in Belgium

----
//I already stated the solution. Atleast I’m making people aware of the reality both practical and theoretical point of view, keeping the history alive so that the worst of the histories dont repeat themselves. I’m trying to bring the other aspects of reality where humanitarianism is just a part of it. Let me skip replying this useless paragraph and connect with the relevant one below// – Sameer you aren’t spreading awareness… you are working as a pawn to those who wish to eliminate peace by making two of the largest populations fight against each other & make their jobs easier.
----
How am I acting as a pawn. Would you like to explain sir?

Like I said put your same logic, that you used for Belgium, for HIndus in Bangladesh and Pakistan. Go there and sing "I care".

----
//No offence, ‘Believe’ is again a very juvenile response and if you want to ‘believe’ in things you want to instead of accepting the reality, then perhaps you should switch on your AC and sleep in your own utopia.// – Using these words again & again don’t prove your point of one being a juvenile… and say I accept what you are saying is reality… what should be my next step to safeguard myself?
----
Being aware of happenings in the world and reading what scripture like Quran has to say, is much more wiser than living in your own utopian bubble and "believing" in your own imaginations. The point is not about safeguarding yourself, its about a bigger picture, i.e to enlighten the people who are living their own bubble so that they can raise their voice check themselves of the true happenings, read the history so that mankind doesn't repeat the same bloodshed. In other words, your meaning of "I care" is juvenile and can lead to bloodshed where people from their own imagination disconnected from reality play a pawn to those with motives. Whereas my meaning of "I care" is to educate the people so that they don't play a pawn to those with motives.

I'm not creating a bloodshed, but only projecting what is written and happening.

-----
//Besides missing my post #26 earlier, you also missed my posts #14, #15, #16, #17, #18. They don’t talk about something naive as ‘believing’ in scriptures but tell you surah (verses) straight from quran which talk of bloodshed and anmosity for infidels, jews and christians.// – The scriptures are a ideology of someone who thought it to be that way, hence I don’t believe/ follow any of them, so where am I wrong?
-----
Don't mind but that was laughable. You hide your face away from reality doesn't mean that reality will vanish in thin air. If Someone beats you and your loved ones from that ideological point of view, then what will you do? Would you say I don't believe in scriptures and stand like a eunuch to witness your loved ones being beaten by the indoctrinated blind believers?

Don't you think you'll do something. Would you preach them your juvenile sugary words again? And what if they start beheading after your preaching? I think prevention is better than cure.

-----
//So as far as your understanding goes, no offence again, but its highly biased in favour of your own figment of imagination ignoring the reality. So that point is missed! Your “blind beliefs” and naive understandings based on ignorance of scriptures makes you think that all scriptures talk of love? You haven’t read quran and you think it talks of love? You judge a book without even reading it?// – Ahhhh…. I missed the word “Also” while stating all holy books (‘Also”) talk about loving & caring of another human being, how is that point missed???
-----
A religious scripture can either talk of unconditional love or unconditional hatred. It cannot talk of both. Again a perfect example of your childishness. Had you read quran, you wouldn't have "assumed" this thing.

Tell me where in quran, does it talk if "love and care" for infidels, jews and christians?

It seems you are assuming too much in your utopia and paying no respect to the written words and reality at all. Then why even debate in the first place for its done to discuss reality and not dreams. Perhaps you should sing the song of "I care" in your dreams?

-----
//Even if you don’t believe in scriptures, then how can you say “all” of them talk of love in the first place? Either you don’t believe or believe that they say something. It cannot be both! You contradict yourself in the first place.// – That’s common sense because all supposed good things start with words to lure the ignorant human being & then inject venom. And literally I have also grown up in a environment, where these thing one can’t ignore if he/she wants to… taking it up & following it is the choice one has to make.
-----
Again an instance of your childishness. Tell me where in Buddhism does it inject the Venom or in Jainism? There is a difference between abrahamic faith and non-abrahamic ones. Former ask to convert the people by hook and crook, whereas the latter talk of love and wisdom, consciousness and unconciousness etc. There are more differences though. But I hope you know what abrahmic religions are in the first place.

It seems you only like to assume and generalize living in your dream world.

-----
//You take things too literally. Read all of my posts and connect with them. Obviously I was not generalising on you on the basis of that stupid movie.// – I don’t need to as I see your trend of just disagreeing with everything you personal don’t believe in & your personal views will not serve the entire human race.
-----
Sorry to disappoint, but these are not my personal views. There is huge difference between your posts and mine. You are only debating about your dreams, assumptions and generalizations and opining about on that dream world which is like animated cartoon series. Whereas, I am only putting forward the 'facts' straight from quran, goats killing from reality, anmosity towards jews and christians, infidels again from Quran. There is no "personal" view of mine at all.

On one hand, you haven't read the mathematics and think 2+2=10 and that you think with "love and care" we can make that possible. Whereas I'm showing you that 2+2=4 is a fact and what you are saying is too juvenile.

-------
//Thats a very noble thought and but also disgraces you. Indirectly, are you implying that you can’t change your hometown to pakistan or Bangladesh and then talk of human rights for Hindus where Hindus are killed randomly and hindu girl taken for granted for sexual pleasure?// – They are the victims of their choice & there are other countries too… like Somalia etc. but, I would first prevent that choice to be made where I am currently & then let it affect the neighbors & overseas.
-------
Oh really? Then why even poke your nose in Belgium's affair in the first place? talk about equality to all, condemn goat slaughter and quota nd reservation, uphold secularism, voice yourself against sharia in constitution and Haj pilgrimaj.

There are so many temples across the world. DOn't you think I would like to go to a "world tour" on subsidised prices based on religion?

------
// Hindus where Hindus are killed randomly and hindu girl taken for granted for sexual pleasure?// Where does this not happen??? The majority anywhere wishes to suppress the minority… so :( & that is to be changed, because all are humans first then anything else & none have the right to suppress or dictate another human being.
------
I think in India this does not happen. Muslims are given perks and privileges like reservation, quota, Haj, "minority votes" deciding on governmental decisions etc.

So do you think in India minority is being suppressed. Again an example of your childishness.

Look at the population growth rate of muslims and compare it with that of Hindu growth rate. Is that suppression?

-----
// I haven’t seen a single instance where you protested against those fanatics muslims who oppose the freedom of women wear for Sania Mirza, freedom of speech for Salman Rushdie and Taslima Nasreen, moreover you completely ignored the reality from practical point of view and theoretical point of view and the same analogy that is given as per this topic for which you forwared sugary words like “I care”. So why don’t you say “I care” when the culprit is quran and many maulanas who are interfering in the life of Sania Mirza and giving death threats to Rushdie and Nasreen?// – Read my first post your complaints will be answered, that is if you read it with a open mind.
-----
Thats an interesting strategy that when you are out of points and unable to answer, you can say read my earlier posts. Which post may I ask?

Let me ask you every simple questions, please answer them with simple yes or no.

a) Do you oppose the muslim world suppressing the freedom of women wear for Sania Mirza?
b) Do you condemn the mass killing of innocent women and children in sabarmati express by muslims?
c) Do you condemn the death threats to Salman Rushie and Taslima Nasreen
d) Do you condemn the mass slauther of goats to appease some god?
e) Do you condemn the instances of killing of infidels, jews, chrisitians etc in Quran?

Please don't talk trash. Just say simple yes or no

-----
//Again, a naive reply. I happen to “care” for animals. “I care”, as simple! Don’t go with the rigmaroles about vegetarianism and non-veg. The thing is lakhs of goats are slaughtered in the name of Allah and religion i.e Islam. You didn’t answer my question, do you care for goats? Do you empathise with them or not? Its a simple ‘yes or No’ that you can answer and not a tough mathematic question.// – Yes I do!!! But when you care for animals, then why only goats… chickens, pigs, cows etc. are also slaughtered not on a given day… but every day??? (I know what your answer will be & am prepared to discuss it further).
-----
YES, I empathise with chicken, pigs, cows. Its funny that you had to ask that. And sure take it further and I'm also prepared for the new debate, but I think moderator wont like it. ;)

-----
//So you agree Islamic nations are atrocious and trying to “bend human nature for ones ideology”? Your thinking seems to be too narrow, after all Islamic nations are also like institions which are biased in favour of one religion and forbid “freedom to practice of religion” for other religions. The only difference is that most professional Educational institutions do not entertain “religions”, whereas Islamic nations do not entertain “other religions”.// – Given an opportunity & platform there will be many who will destroy these institutions within & end inhumane ideologies… & there has been no one to provide them with this opportunity or platform, instead are suppressing the few of many when they try to step out… a procedure comes to a conclusion step by step, isn’t it?
-----
Again a juvenile disconnection from reality. The site I linked earlier faithfreedom.org etc are run by many ex-muslims and muslims who have divorced from Islamic keep on coming to it and posting there.

So how can you say opportunity has not been given? With awareness comes more opportunities, not by dreams and sugary words like "love and care". For your kind information, Quran preaches love and care only for muslims. Infidels, jews and christians are taken as enemies to be killed. Read those verses again, open up the quran and do your homework instead of assuming on your imaginations.

So how can a brainwashed muslim know what true love and care is? How can he know to love and care for infidels, jews and christians? How can he not kill goats in the name of religion?

-----
//Would you like to do yagyas and celebrate other religious festivals in Islamic nations? If you are denied the right, would you protest and say “I care”? Would you go to a school in an Islamic nation sporting a Vedic symbol on body like a “mala” or “teeka” or “aum” on your locket? Again would you go to that school, if the rule book says, other religions are not entertained? Somehow, if you are foolish enough to have taken an admission, would you protest that your symbolization is criticised and thats its all because you being a non-muslim or perhaps a Hindu? Please reply to each and every question!!// – Ask the ones who relish doing all the above & you will have a best fitting answer. If you would have asked this question based on being a human I would have answered it comprehensively.
-----
You are unable to reply to even 10% of my points and digressing almost every time with your absurd logics like "ask the ones who relish". How convenient!

For your information, I have relatives in arabic countries and from them only I know how much supression is done. No one really "relishes" which is again a figment of your imagination. Disconnected from reality, you again assumed infidels, jews and christians "relish" in Islamic nations. Again an example of your childishness!

Read the quoted paragraph again and reply to each every question of mine i.e

Would you like to do yagyas and celebrate other religious festivals in Islamic nations?
If you are denied the right, would you protest and say “I care”?
Would you go to a school in an Islamic nation sporting a Vedic symbol on body like a “mala” or “teeka” or “aum” on your locket?
Again would you go to that school, if the rule book says, other religions are not entertained?
Somehow, if you are foolish enough to have taken an admission, would you protest that your symbolization is criticised and thats its all because you being a non-muslim or perhaps a Hindu? Please reply to each and every question!!

Again a simple yes or no after each line would do. Even a kid can reply them likewise with a simple yes or no.

------
//You think I’m not humanitarian? Generalisation is an indication of a hollow argument and weak spirit! I’m only debating, and some sage rightly indicated that pen is mightier than swords. Perhaps this post is analogous to a pen. Wont you agree sir?// – You might be one, who only sees one side of the coin to be human, which does not work as a humanitarian.
------
From my perspective anything that goes against humanity is non-humanitarian and spreading the awareness on that non-humanitarianism is a part of humanitarian practice for me.

-----//I know that you and I can practice humanity. But you don’t seem to understand that someone, brainwashed by a scripture that calls to kill infidels, sees jews, christians as enemies and to kill goats on a festival, that someone cannot really practice humanity. When one tries to rationalise with him, either he is beheaded or witnesses another bomb blast. Perhaps he could be looked down upon with hatred by that ‘brainwashed one’. So I think you should open up a website and tell these pearls of wisdom like “I care”, “Humanity”, project those verses from Quran that asks to kill the infidels etc and tell them to the muslims and fanatics. You should tell them to undo violence and uphold humanity and stop reading these verses and stop the slaughter of goats. Can you do that?// – For the first half of your para, I would like to ask you… why has that one or the group allowed himself or herself to be brainwashed? And for the second half, I would definitely take up your suggestions & in time will do it if required; otherwise today too word of mouth is the biggest source.
-----
You are asking as if a person born under a stringent Islamic family, which most are, is left with a choice. He is circumcized, made to see the slaughter of goats from day 1 and that jews, infidels and chritians are enemies. How can a child know what is right, if his community, world, parents tell him that such atrocities are fine?

The question of "allowing" doesn't arise in the first place. Its only after in the later years when the conscience and freewill of a muslim takes shape, he is able to rationalise. He sees what true love and care is about and the awareness about killing of goats and that quran wrongfully sees jews, christians and infidels as enemies. Perhaps you would like to read the testimonials from ex-muslims. You can find them in plently. :)

@LawisGreek reporter, it depends what you consider as past. If you are writing something that has happened, then that also becomes past. Why write about it then? Why write about Belgium in the first place? Further, the atrocities of muslims as the history and quran teaches is exactly "the reference point to prevent the same things from happening". It is the reference point for Belgium to ban the burqa. Why make hype about it? Or perhaps we would come to our senses only after a bomb blast?

Its not that if bomb blast wont occur after the ban. But it would reduce the probabilty of a blast!

Is it some kind of fashion to appease muslims and empathise? Does it make people look cool? Why not aware people of these surahs from Quran which talk of bloodshed based on religion, killing infidels, jews and christians?

The focus has not shifted. Can you post news about Quran in the same limelight and empathise with jews,christians and infidels and perhaps goats too? We have no right to make a hype of such things and interfere in the working of intelligence. Religion should be put at bay. Don't you agree?

Obviously, the intent is not to build more anger, but to point towards that anger and the source that is sprouting that anger. Why not pay attention to that to reduce the anger? Perhaps this site can debate on those surahs from Quran and killing of goats en masse, and love and care for infidels, jews and christians?

Oh the site is moderated. You dont have the guts to publish the real comments do you sourced straight from quran?

Yes indeed! It is pandering to Islamphobia..Pick a religion,say its bad,its bad,its bad 10 times a day: Thrice before breakfast, twice before lunch, twice after lunch and thrice after dinner and sleep. You get the perfect medicine for a baseless phobia to extract political mileage out of innocent and gullible 'less-aware' Christians/Jews of Belgium. This move, being more than hurtful, is about garnering a public opinion in this post 9/11 era.

Recall Dec, 2004, when the Belgium government had hinted towards banning any conspicuous RELIGIOUS symbols. June 2005, the move was declared outside the jurisdiction and thus flattened out.

Same might happen this time around as well, however more than banning any 'conspicuous religious symbol' the government should do better at checking terrorism if thats what the real OBJECTIVE is. Banning burquas is not only going against Christianity/Islam/Judaism but also against the fundamental right to dressing.

What is more amusing is that how can a country with self claimed efficient bureaucracy not consider the emotional aspects of this move. Can't the clairvoyants in them foresee the resistance it will arouse around the globe?

While others are devising appeasement instruments, this move might annul the entire progress. What it also does is that it hurts the 'practicing muslims' sentiments and thus giving them reasons to join the 'religion-less Terrorists'. Of course until this move comes from a shrewed 'born but not practicing muslim terrorist', it doesn't make any sense to me.

One small request to LIG: I know Islam SELLS, but try To MAKE MORE SENSE. I could see four marriage clause picked, i could see burqua picked...why dont you explain the logic behind these provision and thus resonate the articles with the central theme of LAW IS GREEK. These tenets are clearly elusive to the 'well read but unaware'us and are GREEK so please EXPLAIN them with logic not rehashing of news items.

Sameer,

My apologies... for missing your response in post 26 & misspelling your name.

Firstly, just because i speak of entire humanity it does not make me less practical or take me away from reality.

//I think feeling insecure is very important as it gives more security, than being boastful and arrogant that we are secure and then face series of bomb blasts.// - I believe in the human mind & its capabilities, so i believe overcoming insecurities with intelligence, not dictatorship.

//Look at India itself, altough its one of the powers in the world economically and militarily, but still every year we have thousands of innocents being killed by fanatics in the name of religion and god and maoists in the name of region and lack of consideration etc. It doesn’t end here, even some traitor politicians and policemen act as catalyst for such terrorists attacks.// - Can you think of reasons why the later part of your statement happens if we really are one of the powers in the world?

//No offence, but your words are too juvenile and disconnected from reality.// - Your thoughts about me, i will bear it.

//You can make assumptions of division and suggary words like ’stand united and we care’, but you are neither a part of belgium intelligence nor know the practical and theoretical past of muslim atrocities.// - Right, I am a part of nothing else than human race, which i care about. The past... can you change it???... Forget past can you change anything in the current scenario???

//I know movies like ‘My name is Khan’ can make you empathise with falsehood, reel life making the real life emotional.// - I was not born just before the release of the above mentioned, so...

//May be you can change your hometown to pakistan or Bangladesh and then talk of human rights for Hindus where Hindus are killed randomly and hindu taken for granted for sexual pleasure.// - Sameer, for me earth is my home & these boundaries are for believers / followers, who are conditioned from the very beginning to look at it the way they look at the other side.

//I think you should speak these sugary words on bakri-id too empathise with reality i.e mass slaughter of poor goats.// - First, are you a vegetarian? Second, how much time do you take in the shower?

//i.e why should educational institutions entertain religion and let people sport beard, burqa, turban etc? Every institution has its own rules. I don’t think people are naive to ignore rules and then whine later. So whose fault is it institution’s or that person who hasn’t read the rules? What belgium did has been debated by me earlier.// - Any rules to bend human nature for ones ideology is dictatorship & benefiting to none.

//So I hope you won’t mind commenting on all those surahs from quran and hadith that I quoted straight from genuine islamic sites and all the other points I forwarded.// - I don’t believe in scriptures/ literature, neither do I follow them… I believe in today & work upon what is best for humanity, not one religion - caste – color or belief. So I am sorry I wouldn’t waste my time on theory.

//The solutions are simple. All the “organized religions” shouldn’t be entertained. The more you entertain a brat, the more confident he becomes in his stupidities and arrogance. I’m not stating that organized religions are ‘brat’, but just that they should be controlled. The religion should be practiced at home and not in professional institutions and above all country comes first and the laws should be respected.// - No one has the right to control another human being… we are not animals, that if one doesn’t follow the heard, he/ she becomes a suspect or an enemy. Brat’s are created by one’s individual mistakes… none are born “Brat’s”.

//In short, it is mostly because of juvenile people divorced from reality who screw the nation, on whose basis corrupt politicians work and terrorists get free tickets to their show.// - Practice humanity to the core & there will be no corrupt politicians & no terrorists to complain about. Can we do that?

//Tell me do your really care? Quran has clear instructions to behead the non-believers and that christians and jews are enemies. Do you care for non-believers, innocent christians and jews? Do you care for goats? If yes, can you spread this awareness then? Explain!!// - Like I mentioned earlier, I don’t believe in scriptures… but just for your information & as far as my understanding goes all holy books talk about loving & caring of another human being, how is that point missed???

I am a little slow so bear with me... thanks!

Regards.

@Vikrant : I'm extremely sorry to have missed your points.

Find me instances of Bali in Vedas or Gita. Do you even know the concept of 'sacrifice' as per Hinduism that was misinterprated over the time and taken literally? If you know your own roots well, you would have known that Vedas are written in metaphorical and poetic way. Statements like 'Sun sacrifices its rays for the benifits of mankind' doesn't mean sun is killing its rays, but only that the rays revive life on earth. Man sacrifices his semen, doesn't mean he is killing semen, but only that he giving it away for new life to be born.

If you are thinking I'm biased, then you are too naive. I do condemn the animal slaughter in Nepal. That animal slaughter is not restricted to Nepal only. Buffaloes and cows are killed too in some rural parts of India where illiterate villagers don't know anything about Hinduism and think Hinduism okays animals slaughter. They marry young children to dogs and frogs which is not even a part of Hinduism. Like I said, I think you don't understand simple English. I clearly told, that not every Indian history is a part of Hinduism. By quoting child marriage, purdah etc I thought I made myself clear. But it seems you need to be spoon fed on every little thing. Its fine, if you are trying to learn Hinduism, then go ahead. Its better than carrying that turd of ignorance in your brain. :)

--------
You are actually confused because you are mixing up too many things, religion, politics, terrorism. What you need to understand is that terrorism has no religion and religion is and should always remain separated from politics in a secular state. A country does not become secular by the virtue of having tolerance for all religions but by separating religion from politics. As for terrorism, it cannot be linked to any religion, for eg: we have David Headley who passed on information about Mumbai and supported the attack. He is not a Muslim. Apart from that there is Punjab which was once a victim of terrorism. Prove that the terror in Punjab was Islamic terrorism. Prove that what Naxals are doing is an “Effect” of Muslim atrocities.
--------
You are like whining little baby all the time without even reading what I said. Would you atleast care to read my posts from #14 - #18. What is religion? Do you think Islam is a religion? If Quran and Hadith clearly promote killings of goats, infidels, jews and christians, then it means Islamic religion is promoting hatred and intolerance. If it is asking to unite the whole world in the name of allah, then ofcourse that is politics. Don't you agree?

What you asked has already been debated, or perhaps the whole debate is taking a toll on your fragile brain which is not able to read the whole thing? Thats what happens when you repeat and don't follow the debate ethics. You end up mocking yourself!

1. I already debated that today, i.e in todays time, most terrorists are muslims. "Most" is not equal to "all". Do you understand simple english?
2. You only talked of Nepal, a small country. Whereas I'm talking from a global perspective not regional or local. Goats are slaughtered in the name of Allah which is promoted by Quran and hadith. Bali is NOT promoted by Vedas and Gita. And it is not practiced globally! Do you understand the difference?
3. What happened in Punjab, didn't happen consistenly and globally. It happened for once and didn't happen again or twice. What happens with goat slaugher and terrorist attacks by muslim fanatics is consistent and global. It happens every month where hundreds of innocents are killed by Islamic fanatics. You can read it in news papers, youtube etc. Name one non-Islamic country, where muslims are residing, that has been spared by the Islamic terrorism! Even the muslims countries now are facing the brunt of its own cult.
4. There is a huge difference between Naxals and Muslims. It has been debated too. Naxals do not terrorise in the name of religion or GOD where Muslims have a clear instructions from Quran and hadith to do so. One is terrorism on the basis of region and other on the basis of religion. Do you understand the difference. If I say 90% of terrorists are muslims from global perspective then obviously the other 10% would constitute the Naxals! Its a pity, that you don't even understand the difference. I condemn both!!

In your ignorance, you are making assumptions like a failure who can't read his books properly and assuming all the time.

-------------
I don’t claim to have knowledge about all the religions in the world but at least few. Yes, I have fair amount of knowledge of Indian History and if you go through it you will find that the seclusion of women and parda custom existed in India before Muslims. They won’t necessarily cover their faces to hide identity but cover their heads to show modesty and often interact with other males from an enclosed area from where they can be heard and not seen. The equivalent of purda in Christianity has been mentioned by Maheswaran in comment no.2. Please make sure you read all the comments as you suggest to others and don’t try to hide your ignorance and fanatical approach behind all those smileys used in your post. Sikhism came from Hinduism and does not require any separate proof.
-------------
Hiding yourself completely is much different than "to show modesty". Do you even understand the difference between Burqa and hiding just the heads? The Indian history also comprises of Kamasutra and arts with hindu women. In Burqa you cannot figure out if the person also has a beard, but what you compared to i.e hiding the heads with purdah, atleast you can know in it if the person is a girl or boy.

In Burqa the whole head is covered, sometimes women only show their eyes. But a terrorist can obviously mask himself in a burqa and blow up buildings. Can you do that in Purda? Anything that intelligence thinks can compromise security should be respected instead of criticising absurdly.

Oh, so now you are assuming I'm hiding 'ignorance and fanaticism" behind smileys? hahahaha :D

First came Piyush who assumed I was getting angry, for whome I started inserting smileys and now comes Vikrant who thinks smileys are useless. Is that the best you can do, i.e assuming stuff? And ignorance in my posts? Please show me where? So far, You are only whining and I'm quoting each and every paragraph of yours and 'proving' side by side, how ignorant you are!! You are only spreading rumours and assuming things and whining about EFFECTS, whereas I'm quoting facts with sources and proper information and the CAUSE!

I have been answering to all your silly drivels and so far you have answered none of mine. How sad! :(

Christianity isn't separate from that clause of mine. Since you claimed to know about some 'equivalent' of Burqa in other religions, you should have had the balls to point some from other religions too and now like a coward you are retracting. You think you achieved some nirvana by quoting christianity? Quote about Taoism, Buddhism, jainism etc too please!

Yes Sikhism, came from hinduism, but its 5 Ks (Kesh, Kada, Kirpan etc) didn't come from hinduism. Puny you and how ignorant! :(

--------
Now, do you know why Buddhism and Jainism were created? If you really talk about cause and effect then go find out why Buddhism and Jainism were created out of Hinduism.
--------
Again how naive! Like I said, every Indian history cannot be called Hinduism. You should have paid attention to that line instead of mocking yourself every where now.

Do you even know that there was a period of brahminism in early ADs?

The Cast system (by birth) that prevails in our society is just a digression or misinterpretation of Varna system (by karma). What is followed now, i.e cast system, child marriage, purdah etc, isn't a part of Vedas or Gita. And what was mentioned i.e classification by profession i.e karma, controlling the mind, greed, lust etc isn't practiced anymore on mass scale.

Jainism and Buddhism started because of that digression to reduce the control of 'corrupt' brahmins and pandits. The cause was "corruption" and misinterpretation of Hinduism. The cause was NOT the ideals of Hinduism. Its again a perfect example of your full fledged ignorance that you are trying to debate on. You are playing an apologist for "anger generating Quran and hadith" on the basis of ignorance?

Its worse, as you are not only trying to protect that seed of anger and hatred, but on the top spreading rumours and misinterpretations about Hinduism as if purda, child marriage etc were part of Hinduism. You are a Shame on Hinduism!!!!

Instead of spreading the awareness about Hinduism and reduce the evils of distortions and misinterpretations, instead of eliminating purda, child marriage and marriage to dogs and frogs, you are spreading rumours as if these were part of Hinduism. You are not criticising Hinduism but spreading falsehood. Shame on You!!! :(

-------------
As for the ban on burqa in Belgium, who is saying the ban is unjust, at least not me. It again shows your lack of understanding others in the haste of proving your fanatic points. Go read my comment again and understand it.
-------------
I didn't point directly or literally at you. I simply and clearly stated that you were just whining about the EFFECTS and not talking susbtance on cause. Instead you moved one step beyond to spread rumours about Hinduism. :(

------------------
For all the citations from Q’ran and other Islamic texts, I would say that I don’t find them credible as I don’t know the source of it and therefore don’t have any interest in commenting on them. These are texts published on the Internet and could be coming for a fanatic like you. Even I can provide several links to articles and texts which prove the same points about Hinduism but won’t do that because those are not credible sources. Secondly, searching Google and pasting all those texts does not show you are knowledgeable about and understand Islam or Quran perfectly.
------------------
I think you are suffering from some eye disease as I quoted the texts straight from an Islamic site that 'promotes' Quran and Islam. Here read again..

SOURCE - wwwDOTmuslimDOTorg/english-quran/quran.htm

If you think this site is not credible, then it would leave me nothing but laughin on you. In any case, I have also mentioned the surah's numbers, you can anytime cross check them.

Your statement that you don't have 'interest in commenting on those surahs from Quran and hadith' clearly tells that you don't have the balls to comment on Islamic evils which stem straight from Quran which says clearly to kill the infidels, jews, christians, goats etc. On the other hand, you don't mind in spreading rumours about Hinduism.

This is exactly what I have been debating from the start that people can empathise with the root cause of the terror, but apathise with Hindus and non-muslims who face the brunt of it and rather spread rumours about Hinduism.

Let me quote it again, read and comment, instead of acting like a spineless coward....

FROM THEORETICAL POINT OF VIEW
Straight from quran.....

SURA 9:5: …slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush.

SURA 2:39: But they who disbelieve, and deny Our revelations, such are rightful Peoples of the Fire. They will abide therein.

SURA 2:191: And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.

SURA 2:194: And one who attacketh you, attack him in like manner as he attacked you. Observe your duty to Allah, and know that Allah is with those who ward off (evil).

SURA 2:254: …The disbelievers, they are the wrong-doers

SURA 4:89: They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them

SURA 4:91: If they keep not aloof from you nor offer you peace nor hold their hands, then take them and kill them wherever ye find them. Against such We have given you clear warrant.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 58, Number 236:

Narrated Hisham's father:
Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old.

Critics would consider she had the choice to leave him but what choice had a girl who would not be able to marry any other man (it forbidden by Islam to marry the prophet's wives) and is brainwashed to think their marriage is arranged by Allah (she was after all, a 9 year old child)

*In war.

From the Quran and hadith,

Sunaan Abu Dawud: Book 11, number 2150

Abu Said al-Khudri said: "The apostle of Allah sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives. Some of the Companions of the apostle of Allah were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Qur'anic verse, "And all married women (are forbidden) unto your save those (captives) whom your right hand possesses". That is to say, they are lawful for them when they complete their waiting period."" [The Qur'an verse is 4:24].
Great 'wisdom', 'humanity' and 'peaceful' way to celebrate victory!

*Sex equality

Quran Chapter 2 Verse 228
Men have a degree over women.

Quran 4:34
Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them ; but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).

The favouritism of god towards men, Quran 012.109
Nor did We send before thee (as messengers) any but men, whom we did inspire,- (men) living in human habitations. Do they not travel through the earth, and see what was the end of those before them? But the home of the hereafter is best, for those who do right. Will ye not then understand?

*Women are equal to dogs and donkey

Sahih Bukhari Volume 1, Book 9, Number 490: (Narrated by Aisha, wife of Muhammad)
The things which annul the prayers were mentioned before me. They said, "Prayer is annulled by a dog, a donkey and a woman (if they pass in front of the praying people)." I said, "You have made us (i.e. women) dogs. I saw the Prophet praying while I used to lie in my bed between him and the Qibla. Whenever I was in need of something, I would slip away. for I disliked to face him."

*People ruled by women will never be successful...

Volume 5, Book 59, Number 709Narrated Abu Bakr)
During the days (of the battle) of Al-Jamal, Allah benefited me with a word I had heard from Allah's Apostle after I had been about to join the Companions of Al-Jamal (i.e. the camel) and fight along with them. When Allah's Apostle was informed that the Persians had crowned the daughter of Khosrau as their ruler, he said, "Such people as ruled by a lady will never be successful."

*[Quran 9:5]
But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

[Quran 9:29] Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

ch5, v36
Those who disbelieve, even if
they had all that is in the earth, and
the like of it with it, to ransom themselves
therewith from the chastisement
of the day of Resurrection, it
would not be accepted from them;
and theirs is a painful chastisement.

ch5,v38
And (as for) the man and the
woman addicted to theft, cut off their
hands as a punishment for what they
have earned, an exemplary punishment
from Allåh. And Allåh is
Mighty, Wise.a

ch5, v41
O Messenger, let not those
grieve thee who hasten to disbelief,
from among those who say with their
mouths, We believe, and their hearts
believe not, and from among those
who are Jews — they are listeners for
the sake of a lie, listeners for another
people who have not come to thee.a
They alter the words after they are
put in their (proper) places, saying: If
you are given this, take it, and if you
are not given this, be cautious. And
he for whom Allåh intends temptation,
thou controllest naught for him
against Allåh. Those are they whose
hearts Allåh intends not to purify.
For them is disgrace in this world,
and for them a grievous chastisement
in the Hereafter.

ch5, v51
O you who believe, take not the
Jews and the Christians for friends.
They are friends of each other. And
whoever amongst you takes them for
friends he is indeed one of them.
Surely Allåh guides not the unjust
people.a

ch5, v64

And the Jews say: The hand of
Allåh is tied up. Their own hands are
shackled and they are cursed for
what they say. Nay, both His hands
are spread out.a He disburses as He
pleases. And that which has been
revealed to thee from thy Lord will
certainly make many of them
increase in inordinacy and disbelief.
And We have cast among them
enmity and hatred till the day of
Resurrection. Whenever they kindle
a fire for war Allåh puts it out, and
they strive to make mischief in the
land.b And Allåh loves not the mischief-
makers.

ch5, v55

Only Allåh is your Friend and
His Messenger and those who believe,
those who keep up prayer and pay the
poor-rate, and they bow down.

ch5, v60
Say: Shall I inform you of those
worse than this in retribution from
Allåh? They are those whom Allåh has
cursed and upon whom He brought
His wrath and of whom He made apes
and swine, and who serve the devil.

ch5, v73

Certainly they disbelieve who
say: Allåh, He is the Messiah, son of
Mary. And the Messiah said: O
Children of Israel, serve Allåh, my
Lord and your Lord.a Surely whoever
associates (others) with Allåh, Allåh
has forbidden to him the Garden and
his abode is the Fire. And for the
wrongdoers there will be no helpers.

Qur'an, Ch 5, V 33
“The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger [i.e., Muhammad], and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is:

“ execution, or

“ crucifixion, or

“ the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or

“ exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter.”

Sources ---

SITES by ex-muslims
wwwDOTislam-watchDOTorg/
wwwDOTjihadwatchDOTorg/
wwwDOTfaithfreedomDOTorg/
wingless.aoriginality.com/?p=16
wwwDOTskepticsannotatedbible.com/QURAN/cruelty/long.html

QURAN ONLINE
wwwDOTmuslimDOTorg/english-quran/ch009-66.pdf
wwwDOTmuslimDOTorg/english-quran/ch009-e.pdf
wwwDOTmuslimDOTorg/english-quran/quran.htm

++++++++++++++++++
@Vikrant, Lets see what you done so far,

1. You have played an apologist for EFFECTS and like spineless coward refrained to comment on the CAUSE.
2. You have spread rumours about Hinduism like child marriage, purda etc as if these are part of Hinduism
3. You have not even answered to these kindergarten type of questions with simple 'yes/No'

a) Do you oppose the muslim world suppressing the freedom of women wear for Sania Mirza?
b) Do you condemn the mass killing of innocent women and children in sabarmati express by muslims?
c) Do you condemn the death threats to Salman Rushie and Taslima Nasreen
d) Do you condemn the mass slauther of goats to appease some god?
e) Do you condemn the instances of killing of infidels, jews, chrisitians etc in Quran?

4. You think what I quoted is not credible. You think wwwDOTmuslimDOTorg is not credible? hahah, laughable! :D

@Vikrant, I am constantly replying to each and every paragraph of yours by quoting them and you are only 'assuming' things about me like 'fanaticism behind smileys', spreading rumours about Hinduism like stated and completely apathetic towards the hatred and violence that stem from Quran and hadith.

Are you trying to practice for the Great Indian Laughter Challenge here? Some of the opponents talked love which I respect and debated accordingly, but you my friend, are hellbent to spread rumours about Hinduism and trying to shelter the facts i.e hatred and violence, 'on the basis of religion', from Quran and Hadith, by finding analogies from 'other religions'. Very sadly, you haven't found much analogies from other religions which might talk of hatred and violence on the basis of religion. But you are only spreading negative rumours about Hinduism! :(

Its because of crazy Hindus like you that Hinduism is percieved by many as a mix of cast system, child marriage, purda etc which is false! Its quite clear that you are ignorant of Vedas and have not read even once verse from bhagvada gita. Shame on You!

Now do reply to my questions instead of proving the fragility of your spine again and again from time to time. :(

For all readers who expressed their thoughts on this post:

We understand your perspectives and that you feel deeply about the country's security and the welfare of people at large.
Thank you for sharing your views but at some point, it appears that our focus shifted to other things. Are we really discussing the greater good of the people here or somethingelse? Perhaps we should look to the future with meaningful initiatives rather than dwell in the past.

History teaches us many invaluable lessons but do we use it as the reference point to prevent the same things from happening? Or, do we use it as a point on which to build more anger? Violence and intolerance do not beget peace in any society, however or whoever justifies it. Time will tell what we, as a nation, have understood of history because what we do in the present will speak for itself.

At LIG, we recognize that every reader has a right to express himself/herself. Our aim is to initiate meaningful dialogue, create awareness about socio-legal issues and get the citizens of this country to question and discuss them but not hurl these issues at each other because that serves no beneficial purpose for anybody.

At LIG, we have published all your comments because we value your thoughts, comments, and views. We request you to continue your discussion without hurting, demeaning, insulting or degrading the beliefs of other countries or communities.

There are a couple of points I'd like to make.

1, Why all this talk about religion ? the wearing of a burqa is not a requirement of Islam, it is simply a cultural choice, based on tradition, not a rule of god.

2, Although not a legal person this seems to me to be a clear and outrageous case of breaching a persons human rights to express themselves.. no governemnt has the right to ban the wearing of cultural traditional dress, and certainly not in Europe.

I find it disgusting that even one person can somehow twist this political points scoring based on ignorant fears and some how justify it..

banning or not banning a veil will not make any difference to security measures, instead, the security measures should be stringent enough to make the entire system safe. Who knows a person in regular attire may just break the rules.

Also, as rightly said by you, the decision should be left on women as this is one of the ethical principles of their religion. If changed by some government, it would certainly create a havoc and lead to differences across world.

Sameer,

All the best in you endeavors, may the people hear you... do add some clear solutions & ways to implement them in your speeches, otherwise people will hear & just walk after showering you with some claps & garlands, just like our politicians. Which will surely boost your ego, but when future generations will read you in history, will crib the same way you are doing today.

Best Regards!

The underlying element behind this hardline approach is the deep-seated lack of tolerance caused by irrational fear in the western world. This scholarly work ( http://www.e-ir.info/?p=3921# ) provides a lot of insight into the hypocrisy that can be found in the claims of religious pluralism in Western countries.

@Sameer, while you have criticized my ignorance, you have yourself very smartly ignored my point about "Bali" in Hinduism because you probably don't have a response for that. If you are talking about cause and effect, I am sure you would be tempted to blame Muslims for having started this tradition also. If you know anything about mass slaughter you will agree that the one of the biggest of such events happens in Gadhimai temple of Nepal, a Hindu temple in an all Hindu nation. If you are so considerate about the goats killed by Muslims why leave there brethren killed by Hindus man. Have some sympathy with them also and condemn that act too.

You are actually confused because you are mixing up too many things, religion, politics, terrorism. What you need to understand is that terrorism has no religion and religion is and should always remain separated from politics in a secular state. A country does not become secular by the virtue of having tolerance for all religions but by separating religion from politics. As for terrorism, it cannot be linked to any religion, for eg: we have David Headley who passed on information about Mumbai and supported the attack. He is not a Muslim. Apart from that there is Punjab which was once a victim of terrorism. Prove that the terror in Punjab was Islamic terrorism. Prove that what Naxals are doing is an "Effect" of Muslim atrocities.

I don't claim to have knowledge about all the religions in the world but at least few. Yes, I have fair amount of knowledge of Indian History and if you go through it you will find that the seclusion of women and parda custom existed in India before Muslims. They won't necessarily cover their faces to hide identity but cover their heads to show modesty and often interact with other males from an enclosed area from where they can be heard and not seen. The equivalent of purda in Christianity has been mentioned by Maheswaran in comment no.2. Please make sure you read all the comments as you suggest to others and don't try to hide your ignorance and fanatical approach behind all those smileys used in your post. Sikhism came from Hinduism and does not require any separate proof.

Now, do you know why Buddhism and Jainism were created? If you really talk about cause and effect then go find out why Buddhism and Jainism were created out of Hinduism.

As for the ban on burqa in Belgium, who is saying the ban is unjust, at least not me. It again shows your lack of understanding others in the haste of proving your fanatic points. Go read my comment again and understand it.

For all the citations from Q'ran and other Islamic texts, I would say that I don't find them credible as I don't know the source of it and therefore don't have any interest in commenting on them. These are texts published on the Internet and could be coming for a fanatic like you. Even I can provide several links to articles and texts which prove the same points about Hinduism but won't do that because those are not credible sources. Secondly, searching Google and pasting all those texts does not show you are knowledgeable about and understand Islam or Quran perfectly.

@Mahesh, thanks for the feedback and the interesting information that you've shared with us about the veil in Christianity. You are right, this is a serious topic and we aim to cover it in the best way that we can. We also welcome any specific topics or suggestions that you may have for us, thanks.

What belgium proposes is for its own good. We perhaps should look into the tragedy that our own country is facing. Why don't muslims sing Vande mataram? Why don't they praise the Hindu gods if Hindus can empathise with Islam? And since 90% of terrorists in this world happen to be muslims, therefore belgium and other countries have every right to remove the remotest chances that can be hazardous to their security!

The favourite reply of apologists is Bush is also a terrorist, maoists are also terrorists. But they often forget, that they don't create violence in the name of God or religion.

FROM THEORETICAL POINT OF VIEW
Straight from quran.....

SURA 9:5: …slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush.

SURA 2:39: But they who disbelieve, and deny Our revelations, such are rightful Peoples of the Fire. They will abide therein.

SURA 2:191: And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.

SURA 2:194: And one who attacketh you, attack him in like manner as he attacked you. Observe your duty to Allah, and know that Allah is with those who ward off (evil).

SURA 2:254: …The disbelievers, they are the wrong-doers

SURA 4:89: They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them

SURA 4:91: If they keep not aloof from you nor offer you peace nor hold their hands, then take them and kill them wherever ye find them. Against such We have given you clear warrant.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 58, Number 236:

Narrated Hisham's father:
Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old.

Critics would consider she had the choice to leave him but what choice had a girl who would not be able to marry any other man (it forbidden by Islam to marry the prophet's wives) and is brainwashed to think their marriage is arranged by Allah (she was after all, a 9 year old child)

*In war.

An article, on the same lines as this naive one, can be written like...

Does the muslim world have a problem with what Sania Mirza wears? Apparently, in some parts of the world, there is growing tension among maulanas and maulvis to the wearing of short skirts by muslim women. They force their women to burqa and denying them freedom and freewill to feel the sunlight. They keep on shouting against Salman Rushdie and Taslima Nasreen giving them death threats. What about freedom of speech? Thus, popular muslim figures like Zakir Naik continue to make the headlines, goats continue to be killed in bakri-id and no one to protect them.

Many muslims keep on shouting against west, christians and jews. Wherever they go, some sort of tension starts. When muslims are in majority, they start demanding sharia and when they don't get it, they say muslims are being victimised and many fanatics start bomb blasting killing innocents. As a result, security is enhanced and muslims are scrutinized. Because of this, stupid movies like "My name is Khan" sprout up and people disconnected from reality start empathising with muslims and forget about the innocents killed and the history. As a result, politics enter the play and more innocents are killed.

I wonder if the muslims are so feeling victimized then why don't they protest against quran and its verses of killing the non-believers and that it treats christians, jews as enemies and that Islam calls for slaughter of goats en masse? Any answer?

@Manoor, You need to read my posts very very carefully because
1. I have already replied to what you asked now in post #26, if you had cared to read that.
2. I'm not "full of hatred". Again in post #26, I clearly pointed that I'm not against Islam or muslims. So, if somebody tells you the bitter truth both from theoretical and practical point of view, it means that someone is against the source of that truth? That is highly ridiculous. If your mother scolds you for your bad habits, does that mean she is against you?
3. Mankind is really strange to keep his talks of peace and big sugary words like "we are one, we care" when the threat is imminent and reality is mocking you. If you ignore it, then either you don't want to accept the reality or you are too naive to understand it.

You stepped between swapna and me, its fine. But tell me, can you really talk of other religions and celebrate the festivals of other religions in Islamic nations en masse? In harsher words, do you have the guts to openly talk against mass slaughter of goats in front of muslims or in a muslim nation?

Althought you stepped, but you haven't replied to even 5% of my points. I would really appreciate if you can reply to all my points from realistic point of view and theoretical point of view, i.e why should educational institutions entertain religion and let people sport beard, burqa, turban etc? Every institution has its own rules. I don't think people are naive to ignore rules and then whine later. So whose fault is it institution's or that person who hasn't read the rules? What belgium did has been debated by me earlier.

So I hope you won't mind commenting on all those surahs from quran and hadith that I quoted straight from genuine islamic sites and all the other points I forwarded.

The solutions are simple. All the "organized religions" shouldn't be entertained. The more you entertain a brat, the more confident he becomes in his stupidities and arrogance. I'm not stating that organized religions are 'brat', but just that they should be controlled. The religion should be practiced at home and not in professional institutions and above all country comes first and the laws should be respected.

Strange hun, we keep on bad mouthing the such laws like 'ban on burqa' when from intelligence point of view it is critical and security is implemented. But due to a stupid 'hype' (on online forums or otherwise) like this, politicans in their pursuit to get attention and play vote banks, start entertaining people who sing juvenile words like 'we care and when a blast occurs we blame the same intelligence.

So when intelligence works we protest against it many times and when a blast occurs, people die because of success of our stupid protests against intelligence. Then, we shout intelligence is not working.

In short, it is mostly because of juvenile people divorced from reality who screw the nation, on whose basis corrupt politicians work and terrorists get free tickets to their show.

Tell me do your really care? Quran has clear instructions to behead the non-believers and that christians and jews are enemies. Do you care for non-believers, innocent christians and jews? Do you care for goats? If yes, can you spread this awareness then? Explain!!

Hello Samir,

A very well argued point, but nothing new...

While you are aware of all the problems & are full of hatred... I would now request you to present some solutions too, to better the situation & shrug off some of your own burden, that is if you have any & can get it implemented for the betterment of the society.

Samir, this argument has been on for centuries & till today politicians are also using it for the best of their use, have you ever given a thought why aren't the leaders of the country & world not able to sort this out?

While you are going on & trying to prove your point on this forum tell me what is it that you are achieving? I am also wondering why you didn't have anything to say about my earlier post, i am sure you don't agree with me???

Hope you don't mind me stepping between yours & Swapna's debate.

Awaiting response.

I mean I "wasn't" pointing towards you

@Moderator, can we have a little typo correction feature? :)

Thank you, Neha and Lawrence, for sharing your thoughts on this post and for expressing your opinions freely. Please continue to add your comments and suggestions for us on LIG.

Thank you, Sameer and Swapna, for sharing your views.

The Quran has been interpreted and misinterpreted by followers and critics. All religious texts can be probed for such connotations if we want to look at it so critically. Let's take the best lessons from it and move forward to apply it in our life, rather than dwell only on the negative aspects of interpretations that may or may not be accurate.

And yes, Sameer, as you rightly pointed out this site is moderated. However, as you can see now, we have published your comments because we respect all feedback and views expressed here. We hope you will continue to make suggestions and share your views and discuss them with us on this forum.

At LIG, we like to believe these discussions and sharing of views will bring more clarity and change prejudices and thereby, initiate meaningful change in our interactions with you and all others. Once again,thank you for sharing your thoughts with us.

Lakhs of goats are killed on bakri-id. Who is compassionate and humble?

Quran clearly says that Jews and chrisitans are enemies, read the surah that I copied straight from quran. Who is being humble and compassionate?

Today if a new religion rises that calls to kill muslims on a given festival like muslims kill goat on Id, would you approve of it? Would you talk of humbleness and compassion?

If this is a secular country then why
a. Haj is given?
b. Why part of sharia is implemented in constitution?
c. Why animal rights activists ignore the plight of animals on bakri-id?

I thought secularity meant 'A position that religious belief should not influence public and governmental decisions' or perhaps this is secularism that PM manmohan singh telling that 'Muslims must have first claim on resources'?
http://www.expressindia.com/news/fullstory.php?newsid=77972

It looks good on books and words, but I think reality is much different from theory. On books we have secularism, but in reality we have pseudo-secularism.

I have clearly categorised my previous post from 'practical point of view' and 'theoretical point of view'. This is the reality that most of the terrorists are muslims. I'm not against Islam or muslims, but if the quran (theory) and every other bomb blasts involves muslims, it relates to unconditional violence both from theory and realistic point of view. Keeping this in view, Belgium has full rights to propose a ban on Burqa. If the community doesn't like it, then perhaps it should retrospect and introspect, rever the gods of other religions, sing vande mataram etc. Why so intolerant? Why are non-muslims always singing the song of 'compassion, humbless and that their religious sentiments would be hurt?', why don't muslims sing it and project that in practice?

You are right that Sikhs turban was also banned, but atleast they didn't blow of churches or masjids. Look at what happened when france opposed beards/burqa? I hope you remember about bomb blasts in France. This is exactly what I'm talking about. The country comes first and if any security paramater is hindered, then I think religion becomes secondary or tertiary to be concerned about. Would you like you views to be changed after a bomb blast in Belgium? I think prevention is much better than cure. Even if it was to be ban on Hindu practice like immersing Ganesha statue in river in Belgium from some unknown security paramater, I would have completely favored it.

@Manoor Sachdev : I think feeling insecure is very important as it gives more security, than being boastful and arrogant that we are secure and then face series of bomb blasts. Look at India itself, altough its one of the powers in the world economically and militarily, but still every year we have thousands of innocents being killed by fanatics in the name of religion and god and maoists in the name of region and lack of consideration etc. It doesn't end here, even some traitor politicians and policemen act as catalyst for such terrorists attacks.

No offence, but your words are too juvenile and disconnected from reality. You can make assumptions of division and suggary words like 'stand united and we care', but you are neither a part of belgium intelligence nor know the practical and theoretical past of muslim atrocities. I know movies like 'My name is Khan' can make you empathise with falsehood, reel life making the real life emotional. May be you can change your hometown to pakistan or Bangladesh and then talk of human rights for Hindus where Hindus are killed randomly and hindu taken for granted for sexual pleasure.

I think you should speak these sugary words on bakri-id too empathise with reality i.e mass slaughter of poor goats.

@Moderator : I request you to keep a check on IP addresses or impersonations, posts by two people who say the same thing in "exact ditto words".

@Swapna, the issue is about Belgium only and why it proposes ban. I am in full agreement with that move and hence given the reason of why
1. People should look at their own country instead of poking their nose in other's affairs
2. If you want to poke nose, then
a.) From practice point of view, the only religion whose 'followers' create violence in the name of God are muslims. I haven't seen hindus, christians, jains, buddhists etc blowing up masjids randomly throughout the world, beheading or killing the people of other religions as Islamic fanatics do. Perhaps, you want to argue about that too? I can give countless instances and play the game of who gives more examples. In pakistan alone they razed more than 100 temples in the last 5 years under the 'enemy territory act', imposed Jiziya in Sikhs, murdered their religious leader. In Indian history, more than 60000 temples have been razed by mughals if you have read about their atrocities. If not, then starting with Babur Nama and aurangzeb would be a good start. Even tansen was converted. Rajput women commited mass suicides to prevent them from mughal atrocities. Jiziya was practiced on large scale and infidel women were treated as objects.

b). I advise you too read Quran and Hadith. I have already given excerpts from it straight from a genuine Islamic site ( wwwDOTmuslimDOTorg/english-quran/quran.htm) and backed up by critics i.e ex-muslims ( wwwDOTfaithfreedomDOTorg )

I understand your humbleness and compassion, but in my opinion that is just ignoring the reality. Muslims can marry 4 women if they treat them equally. They can convert a hindu girl. But if non-muslim wishes to marry a muslim girl, then as per sharia the non-muslim would have to convert. Again read the quran and hadiths.

You call yourself as Hindu, then as per Gita you should know that whenever 'dharma' is in danger we should raise our voice. Tell me who started the Godhra riots? Why didn't the media project that? Were the only victims muslims? Weren't their any hindus killed? It all started with the mass massacre of Hindus, karsevaks mostly women and children who were burnt alive in the sabarmati express. The Indian history is full of such initiations. Then are we talking of compassion and humbleness? I think history should teach us lessons and not something to forget. You talk about constitution, then you should know that as per constitution the quota system had 10% reservation and was to be eliminated after 10 years. Now look at the situation. Even Gujjars are demanding reservation. We all know the percentage of reservation for muslims, SC, ST, OBC etc.

You are right this country is secular as per the notebook a.k.a constitution, but you it seems ignored my other points. How are muslims socio-economically deprived now? The bollywood is ruled by Khans, Indian president had been a muslims, they are given quota/reservation for years. WE can say 'allah' and 'inshallah' freely. Can muslims say 'Om namah Shivaye' and sing vande mataram likewise? Who is being socially neglected now? Who is not being humble?

Interesting exchange between Sameer and Manoor there. Manoor (the rational) will try that much and then finally leave Sameer (the passionate) to find the truth. I see that happen all the time.

Some points to ponder:
1) Does the fact that something wrong has been done in other countries justify driving India to do what is wrong? A large number of us here are proud of the country we live in and do not see any reason to become like another country that has chosen to be non secular.

2) 'Anger' is a strange negative energy. It is like a special ping pong ball which grows in size when it goes from one side to the other. Interesting thing is that every now and then it creates very violent actions (termed acts of terror, war, riots etc.)but mostly lives in words through the ages. Words like those quoted here by Sameer today....Sameer adds a hit of the racket to those words and sends them across time and space....thousand years later another person would speak with the same level of hatred about Sameer and how his words changed over some peaceful secular individuals to join the line of fire....who knows when this ping pong game ends!

3) Politics - such an interesting force which can create leaders who can change things for the better. The only problem is that the fastest route to becoming a famous politician today is to misuse religion. A few hundred Sameers shouting at the top of a few hills can cause enough momentum to give a politician the mileage to execute a riot, kill a few hundred innocent civilians and get the votes in the next election to be an MP.

@Manoor - sorry I have nothing much to say to you as I just agree with most of what you say.

Also, lets see the facts

1. The population of muslims is rising day by day more than any other community
2. Quran instills hatred and anger among muslims via verses which talk of killing of infidels, jews and christians and many other things as stated already
3. Most muslims are staunch believers in Quran

You keep on talking of your theories and philosophies. So tell me how are you going to stop that "anger"?

The population of muslims will increase, conversions will happen by hook or crook, jews, christians, inifdels etc who will question Allah or mohammed will be killed and 'nice people' like you would gradually decrease in their own talks of calm and peace.

So @Piyush, make it a habit to answer every point of mine. It is called debate ethics i.e to read everything and answer everything. You hardly have talked anything of substance but like a stereotype only played a priest trying to tell who got an A+ or B+ in his report card. :D

Sameer,

Just wanted to say... that ironically you see others perspective to be narrow, just because they don't agree with you... does that say something about you?

Best Wishes!

Really interesting debate going on here so I thought I would also jump in and give my two cents. First of all, I think @Sameer has given the debate on whether the ban on burqa in Belgium is right or not and whether it is in line with human rights an absolutely new shape; Muslims vs. Non-Muslims. This certainly doesn't look like an idea behind this post. @Sameer everyone is tempted to write on the subject they are passionate about but don't digress the discussion from the core issue with all your arguments which we have been listening to for years now. This is not new, every non-Muslim comes up with these facts and Muslims will come up with their own and the debate continues....

Coming to banning burqa, i think nobody really touched upon and tried to find why it was introduced in the very first place. Secondly, the fact that whether the burqa has any equivalents in other religions has been completely ignored. Thirdly, what is the definition of a public place in the Belgium law.

To my understanding the burqa, in fact the whole attire that covers most of the women body was introduced in Islam to protect the women against the winds blowing in the middle eastern world from where Islam originated. The reason why burqas are generally black in color is that it blocks heat from penetrating similar to the umbrellas which are mostly black in color. The second reason was that it helped women secure themselves against harassment from men.

There is nothing religious about it guys, it was based on conditions prevailing at that time. In every other religion there has been an equivalent of burqa, for eg: Hindu women had, and still have to an extent, the Parda custom. With education and evolution of society and culture we can see this custom going away. The reason behind Parda was same as burqa; it helped women hide their identity and be protected from sexual harassment. You never know who could be behind the Parda, may be your sister or mother.

The third point to be looked at is which public places are covered by the law. Does it ban the use of burqas in public gatherings, while walking on road, taking stroll in a park, at tourist places or for that matter even while shopping? If not then I don't think there should be any problem with the law. We all would agree that burqa hides the identity of the person and there are several places where identification of the person is important such as schools & colleges, airports, hotels (for accommodation), polling booths etc. and there this law does make perfect sense. I Without having clarity about this element of the law it is pointless to discuss anything.

Now coming to Belgium, I think the creation and opposition of the law both are meant to gain political mileage and nothing else. If Belgium really wanted to secure women rights they should have made a law against enforcing burqas on women who don't want that. While I agree there are women who would like to wear burqa due to their religious and cultural sentiments, there are lots of them who don't want to do that and are forced to do so. There should have been a law to protect them and empower those women with education and legal rights.

@Sameer I do condemn all the facts that you have mentioned in comment no. 42. But why focus on Muslims only and forget what happened in and after Babri Masjid demolition, why forget that the concept of "Bali" or sacrifice existed in Hinduism as well and why not recall the Gulbarg society of Gujarat riots killing so many Muslims when you remember the Sabarmati Express case.